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	<title>Comments on: If You Post a Message and It Doesn&#8217;t Appear</title>
	<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/</link>
	<description>I have no idea whether ''The Stars Are Indifferent to Astronomy'' is a good album, but I might have to buy it just on the basis of its awesome name</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mitch4</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22165</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22165</guid>
		<description>Please, I would hope you know I'm not taking quite that silly a position&#8212;that spelling does or should always follow speech.  And you've given the classic (and IMO correct) argument against so-called phonetic spelling reform.

But still it's a good principle (unless you're a dyed-in-the-wool Derridean) that the spoken language has in many ways a primacy over writing or other derved frms of language.  For me among many others that is not absolute of course, and there are many interesting things that can be said about written language that do not derive from equivalent points about speech.  Yet &lt;em&gt;in general&lt;/em&gt; most description as well as analysis begins with the spoken language and may beadapted or extended to writing, derivatively.  This is a totally accepted starting point in any American school of thought in Linguistics, and even for many Continental linguists (albeit not, as acknowledged, for insane Parisians).

So consider for instance the descriptive rule for the English spoken -s inflection giving the plural for regular nouns, and the phonologically equivalent one for the 3rd person singular present of regular verbs.  [And dare I say, for the simple possessive?]  There are four cases, or some would merge the last two and say there are three:

1. If the stem ends in a sibilant consonant (voiced or unvoiced), append /@z/.
2. If the stem ends in any other unvoiced consonant, append /s/.
3. If the stem ends in any other voiced consonant, append /z/.
4. If the stem ends in a vowel [necessarily voiced], append /z/.

(Items 3 and 4 could be merged since they are triggered by voicing and it doesn't matter vowel vs. consonant.  But it's clearer this way.)

Now what is the rule or principle for the written form?  (Which is somewhere between fully descriptive and fully prescriptive.)  It's actually simpler, because the orthography has -s whether the sound is /s/ or /z/ ... unless you're exceedingly hip and have some "warez" to offer, or the like.

The rule for the written forms is actually much simpler because of that, and cases 2,3, and 4 merge.  There is a slight complication because of silent -e and other spelling particulars of spelling that disguise the sound.  

But which is the right way to put the sibilant rule?
1A. If the stem ends in a sibilant LETTER, add -es.
1B. If the stem ends in a sibilant SOUND, add the syllable /@s/, by adding the letters -es unless the written stem already ends in -e, in which case add just -s.  
(And of course "2. Otherwise, add -s.") 

The 1A and 1B will disagree in just a few cases, and most style sheets will go with the form suggested by 1B.  (Think of adopted French words ending in silent -s.)  But even if you go for 1A, it should be clear that the phonological description is more fundamental, and the written description/prescription derives from it by collapsing cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, I would hope you know I&#8217;m not taking quite that silly a position&mdash;that spelling does or should always follow speech.  And you&#8217;ve given the classic (and IMO correct) argument against so-called phonetic spelling reform.</p>
<p>But still it&#8217;s a good principle (unless you&#8217;re a dyed-in-the-wool Derridean) that the spoken language has in many ways a primacy over writing or other derved frms of language.  For me among many others that is not absolute of course, and there are many interesting things that can be said about written language that do not derive from equivalent points about speech.  Yet <em>in general</em> most description as well as analysis begins with the spoken language and may beadapted or extended to writing, derivatively.  This is a totally accepted starting point in any American school of thought in Linguistics, and even for many Continental linguists (albeit not, as acknowledged, for insane Parisians).</p>
<p>So consider for instance the descriptive rule for the English spoken -s inflection giving the plural for regular nouns, and the phonologically equivalent one for the 3rd person singular present of regular verbs.  [And dare I say, for the simple possessive?]  There are four cases, or some would merge the last two and say there are three:</p>
<p>1. If the stem ends in a sibilant consonant (voiced or unvoiced), append /@z/.<br />
2. If the stem ends in any other unvoiced consonant, append /s/.<br />
3. If the stem ends in any other voiced consonant, append /z/.<br />
4. If the stem ends in a vowel [necessarily voiced], append /z/.</p>
<p>(Items 3 and 4 could be merged since they are triggered by voicing and it doesn&#8217;t matter vowel vs. consonant.  But it&#8217;s clearer this way.)</p>
<p>Now what is the rule or principle for the written form?  (Which is somewhere between fully descriptive and fully prescriptive.)  It&#8217;s actually simpler, because the orthography has -s whether the sound is /s/ or /z/ &#8230; unless you&#8217;re exceedingly hip and have some &#8220;warez&#8221; to offer, or the like.</p>
<p>The rule for the written forms is actually much simpler because of that, and cases 2,3, and 4 merge.  There is a slight complication because of silent -e and other spelling particulars of spelling that disguise the sound.  </p>
<p>But which is the right way to put the sibilant rule?<br />
1A. If the stem ends in a sibilant LETTER, add -es.<br />
1B. If the stem ends in a sibilant SOUND, add the syllable /@s/, by adding the letters -es unless the written stem already ends in -e, in which case add just -s.<br />
(And of course &#8220;2. Otherwise, add -s.&#8221;) </p>
<p>The 1A and 1B will disagree in just a few cases, and most style sheets will go with the form suggested by 1B.  (Think of adopted French words ending in silent -s.)  But even if you go for 1A, it should be clear that the phonological description is more fundamental, and the written description/prescription derives from it by collapsing cases.</p>
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		<title>By: CIDU Bill</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22162</link>
		<dc:creator>CIDU Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22162</guid>
		<description>Mitch, if spelling followed pronunciation, the United States would need at least a dozen different editions of the dictionary -- and we'd have a state named Organ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch, if spelling followed pronunciation, the United States would need at least a dozen different editions of the dictionary &#8212; and we&#8217;d have a state named Organ.</p>
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		<title>By: CIDU Bill</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22159</link>
		<dc:creator>CIDU Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22159</guid>
		<description>Mitch, I'm not sure why Jesus and Socrates should be exceptions to the rule. Granted, Socrates's &lt;B&gt;sounds&lt;/B&gt; awkward, but the best solution to that sort of thing is to simply rephrase the sentence to avoid the issue.

When writing fiction, I make a point of avoiding names that end in "s," as a way of sidestepping this problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch, I&#8217;m not sure why Jesus and Socrates should be exceptions to the rule. Granted, Socrates&#8217;s <b>sounds</b> awkward, but the best solution to that sort of thing is to simply rephrase the sentence to avoid the issue.</p>
<p>When writing fiction, I make a point of avoiding names that end in &#8220;s,&#8221; as a way of sidestepping this problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch4</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22155</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22155</guid>
		<description>Todd and CIDU Bill: The *real* rule for this sort of case is that the spelling follows the pronunciation.  If you give it an additional syllable (as you generally should) you write it with -s+apostrophe+s.  If you leave it at the original final sibilant without sounding another syllable (a few exceptional names), you write it with just -s+apostrophe.

And then, the descriptive (and maybe even explanatory) principle (not 'rule' in  the normative sense anyway) goes into when we do or do not add that extra syllable.

The prescriptive part, according to the Chicago Manual of Style (though I'm an edition or two behind the current one I admit) accords with how Bill lays it out, for basic cases like Morris's.  But I urge you in Jesus' name not to take it too far; and that would be Socrates' position too, don't you think?   And for goodness sake, recall that you don't even always use the apostrophe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd and CIDU Bill: The *real* rule for this sort of case is that the spelling follows the pronunciation.  If you give it an additional syllable (as you generally should) you write it with -s+apostrophe+s.  If you leave it at the original final sibilant without sounding another syllable (a few exceptional names), you write it with just -s+apostrophe.</p>
<p>And then, the descriptive (and maybe even explanatory) principle (not &#8216;rule&#8217; in  the normative sense anyway) goes into when we do or do not add that extra syllable.</p>
<p>The prescriptive part, according to the Chicago Manual of Style (though I&#8217;m an edition or two behind the current one I admit) accords with how Bill lays it out, for basic cases like Morris&#8217;s.  But I urge you in Jesus&#8217; name not to take it too far; and that would be Socrates&#8217; position too, don&#8217;t you think?   And for goodness sake, recall that you don&#8217;t even always use the apostrophe.</p>
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		<title>By: chuckers</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22150</link>
		<dc:creator>chuckers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22150</guid>
		<description>There are people in Commonwealth countries that will insist that Morris' is the correct
possessive and claim up and down that Morris's is actually incorrect grammar or an
Americanism.

I have had grief about this before as my surname ends in an 's' from some of my
differently educated friends.

The also spell and pronounce words like "alumininium" use the letter "hetch"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are people in Commonwealth countries that will insist that Morris&#8217; is the correct<br />
possessive and claim up and down that Morris&#8217;s is actually incorrect grammar or an<br />
Americanism.</p>
<p>I have had grief about this before as my surname ends in an &#8217;s&#8217; from some of my<br />
differently educated friends.</p>
<p>The also spell and pronounce words like &#8220;alumininium&#8221; use the letter &#8220;hetch&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cidu Bill</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22121</link>
		<dc:creator>Cidu Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22121</guid>
		<description>Todd, that rule applies when the word is a plural. The possessive of &lt;B&gt;dogs&lt;/B&gt; is &lt;B&gt;dogs'&lt;/B&gt;. But &lt;B&gt;Morris&lt;/B&gt; isn't a plural (unless we're talking about more than one Morri), so it's treated the same as any singular possessive: &lt;B&gt;Morris's&lt;/B&gt;
&lt;P&gt;That being said, of course, many people -- and many people whose job it is to know better -- write &lt;B&gt;Morris'&lt;/B&gt;; and I'm sure many of them, when confronted with their error, will use the "language is evolving" argument. But evolution of language doesn't not mean that if enough people do something wrong, it magically becomes right. Maybe someday, but for now this is no different from people who don't seem to understand that &lt;B&gt;there&lt;/B&gt; and &lt;B&gt;their&lt;/B&gt; are different words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd, that rule applies when the word is a plural. The possessive of <b>dogs</b> is <b>dogs&#8217;</b>. But <b>Morris</b> isn&#8217;t a plural (unless we&#8217;re talking about more than one Morri), so it&#8217;s treated the same as any singular possessive: <b>Morris&#8217;s</b></p>
<p>That being said, of course, many people &#8212; and many people whose job it is to know better &#8212; write <b>Morris&#8217;</b>; and I&#8217;m sure many of them, when confronted with their error, will use the &#8220;language is evolving&#8221; argument. But evolution of language doesn&#8217;t not mean that if enough people do something wrong, it magically becomes right. Maybe someday, but for now this is no different from people who don&#8217;t seem to understand that <b>there</b> and <b>their</b> are different words.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22117</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22117</guid>
		<description>All my posts always get "Your comment is awaiting moderation."  I don't know if it's because of my fake e-mail address (which I use at Bill's recommendation), or because something I posted was interpreted as inflammatory.

As for the possessive, I was always taught that if a word or name ended in "s", you add only the apostrophe.  (Then again, I was also told to include punctuation inside the quotations, and you can see how I follow that rule.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All my posts always get &#8220;Your comment is awaiting moderation.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s because of my fake e-mail address (which I use at Bill&#8217;s recommendation), or because something I posted was interpreted as inflammatory.</p>
<p>As for the possessive, I was always taught that if a word or name ended in &#8220;s&#8221;, you add only the apostrophe.  (Then again, I was also told to include punctuation inside the quotations, and you can see how I follow that rule.)</p>
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		<title>By: David N</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22114</link>
		<dc:creator>David N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22114</guid>
		<description>Just hope and pray it doesn't become self-moderating, Bill.   ;)

But in the spirit of the day, this day, July 4th - in case it does become self-aware here goes:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all posts are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, and that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Comic Understanding."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just hope and pray it doesn&#8217;t become self-moderating, Bill.   <img src='http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But in the spirit of the day, this day, July 4th - in case it does become self-aware here goes:</p>
<p>&#8220;We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all posts are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, and that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Comic Understanding.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cidu Bill</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22112</link>
		<dc:creator>Cidu Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22112</guid>
		<description>So you're saying, David, that next week WordPress becomes self-aware?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you&#8217;re saying, David, that next week WordPress becomes self-aware?</p>
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		<title>By: David N</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22111</link>
		<dc:creator>David N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2009/07/03/if-you-post-a-message-and-it-doesnt-appear/#comment-22111</guid>
		<description>For kicks, I ran "Morris Keesan" through an anagram program.  Choice among them were "Snakier Mores", "Rake More Sins" and my favorite, "Moaner Kisser".  Bill, maybe your spam filter is trying to become an AI and is in the anagram/hidden meaning phase.  Sooner or later it will want to play chess and Global Thermonuclear War.  Then it will start measuring our posts based on intelligence and ability to express one's self.

Which means if this post gets through, it hasn't gotten there yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For kicks, I ran &#8220;Morris Keesan&#8221; through an anagram program.  Choice among them were &#8220;Snakier Mores&#8221;, &#8220;Rake More Sins&#8221; and my favorite, &#8220;Moaner Kisser&#8221;.  Bill, maybe your spam filter is trying to become an AI and is in the anagram/hidden meaning phase.  Sooner or later it will want to play chess and Global Thermonuclear War.  Then it will start measuring our posts based on intelligence and ability to express one&#8217;s self.</p>
<p>Which means if this post gets through, it hasn&#8217;t gotten there yet.</p>
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